Context: I am the solo IT manager at a small non-profit. We have two sites, and in the short term are looking to upgrade one from a Sam’s Club special brandless chinese DVR&camera setup to a more useful surveillance system. We are on a budget, so a top-of-the-line enterprise grade solution is probably out of the question. Trying to keep this within the $2k-$3k range.
I use Unifi Protect with a swath of G3 Flexes on a UDM Pro at home and have been pretty happy with what it provides for my personal needs. The phone app and central management panel are easy to use and do what I need. My biggest complaint would be the range of the IR illumination provided with the G3 Flexs. I think we will need much greater range for the organization set up. I know some of the other cameras do better but I’m not sure how much better in practice. It would need to be a lot better.
My first thought was to get a Unifi Protect NVR with some cameras for our needs. I was looking at at least one G4 Pro to enable us to capture license plates from the building near our entrance. Again, however, IR illumination distance is going to be a key here. I have also considered getting external IR illumination to help, but not really sure what the best options are there.
My second thought was that, just because I am familiar with Unifi Protect hardware doesn’t mean I need to stuff this project into that box. I have heard some of the complaints about Ubiquiti stuff, and I am definitely open to considering other options, but I don’t have great familiarity with this tech space. So, I would love experienced suggestions and ideas.
Thanks, Spiceheads!
@Ubiquiti_Inc
6 Spice ups
seankelly1
April 13, 2021, 4:18pm
2
How many cameras are you talking about?
Right now, probably about 5. That could grow over time.
tb33t
April 13, 2021, 5:43pm
4
Not sure if it would fit your budget, but HikVision or Vivotek are what I generally recommend for a business. Might need to shop around for mid tier surveillance systems. Good luck!
Thanks for your input! HikVision is definitely out for me as I am not interested in any technology built by Chinese companies given their government’s policy of inserting back doors in everything, especially being partially state-owned. As far as Vivotek goes, or any other option for that matter, will we be on the hook for any recurring costs with their setup for cloud services or other support? One of the benefits to the UI system is that there are no recurring costs, and we would highly prefer not to add any.
seankelly1
April 14, 2021, 10:59am
6
It may be overkill for your needs, but I’m a fan of Synology’s Surveillance Station. A Synology NAS acts as the the surveillance system/head. You do have that initial cost, but you would only need a small system if just a few cams. The software is very possible and it will work with pretty much any ONVIF compliant camera. No recurring costs but lots of power. Good if you want to customize the cameras that you use. Otherwise, an off-the-shelf system is simpler…
2 Spice ups
Funny you mention that, I just discovered Surveillance Station yesterday and I am a big fan of what it appears to offer. We use other Synology products, so it’s not hard to convince me. The next question would be camera options, though–they’d be endless! A good problem to have, but I have no idea what’s what in that space.
compgeek89:
Thanks for your input! HikVision is definitely out for me as I am not interested in any technology built by Chinese companies given their government’s policy of inserting back doors in everything, especially being partially state-owned. As far as Vivotek goes, or any other option for that matter, will we be on the hook for any recurring costs with their setup for cloud services or other support? One of the benefits to the UI system is that there are no recurring costs, and we would highly prefer not to add any.
Vivotek isn’t cloud based, it would all be locally hosted. their NVR software is free with up to 32 of their cameras, after that you need additional licenses.
I pay roughly $200 for 2MP indoor cameras from vivotek
Hey OP - In case you’re interested in some additional ideas for your surveillance set up, we did just announce our HC3 Video Surveillance and Security Solutions, optimized to consolidate video storage, video management, and analytics workloads. And, especially for smaller surveillance systems, running a VMS workload in one or more VMs alongside other IT infrastructure applications like AD, DNS, File and Print, etc. can greatly reduce the number of infrastructure systems to manage. By the way, Scale Computing HC3 is an IT infrastructure platform with the performance, ease of use, and resilience required to support surveillance, security, and IoT requirements.
Feel free to take a look here if you want more info: Hyperconverged Video Surveillance Infrastructure… | Scale Computing
1 Spice up
Hi,
Your current budget is a perfect start and there are some great recommendations already provided in the thread. But as you grow you may be interested in our established product specially made for video surveillance purposes. StarWind HyperConverged Appliance (HCA) for Video Surveillance & Analytics is a rock-solid platform that ensures that mission-critical video and security applications perform to the highest expectations 24/7/365.
Check here for more details https://www.starwindsoftware.com/hyperconverged-appliance-for-video .
It is certified and built to industry best practices so you’ll get guaranteed support and no vendor finger-pointing as the solution has been tested, approved, and certified by Hypervisor and VMS vendors. All of the platform’s components are supported by StarWind to ensure any customers’ queries are taken care of according to the strictest SLAs.
Some great insights on the product can be found in the following success story https://www.starwindsoftware.com/resource-library/bosch-security-systems-success-story/ .
What is great about the product that you can combine traditional virtualized workload and video surveillance within the same solution. If you are planning an upgrade of your existing infrastructure you can kill two birds with one stone.
If you need a demo or some ideas about pricing avoiding exhausting negotiations with sales guys feel free to contact me in DM.
1 Spice up
I’ve been looking for a solution for some auto repair shops and feel your hopes and pains. I’ve been looking for 4K (8 MP) cameras and a recording solution. Most solutions on a budget come from mainland China. Geovision cameras seem to be on par with Hikvision, but are from Taiwan, the other China. Their 4K cameras start around $200. Vivotek seems to be an excellent camera choice, but from my research are as pricy as Axis for the 4K cameras. Maybe @brodyweber has a better source at a better price.
1 Spice up
Emperor Crusher:
I’ve been looking for a solution for some auto repair shops and feel your hopes and pains. I’ve been looking for 4K (8 MP) cameras and a recording solution. Most solutions on a budget come from mainland China. Geovision cameras seem to be on par with Hikvision, but are from Taiwan, the other China. Their 4K cameras start around $200. Vivotek seems to be an excellent camera choice, but from my research are as pricy as Axis for the 4K cameras. Maybe Bweber93 has a better source at a better price.
I purchase direct from Connection, though I also have a contact for the Vivotek USA Regional Sales peep as well. Connection is usually fine for what I need price and stock wise. I would recommend not looking at cameras in terms of 4K, as it can be misleading depending on your view distance, angle, and everything else. you might feel you’re going to get some great quality but then because everything is so far away it’s not. A lot of the calculators that help you figure out storage size, what camera to recommend for certain uses/distances all go by Megapixel.
The range I’ve purchased has been 2MP for about $200, 4MP for about $300-400, and then we got a couple 20 MP cameras for the parking lot at $1500 each. those are four camera composite cameras, meaning they have 4 individual cameras that are stitched together to form one video.
You can always find cheaper cameras, but in my opinion you can’t find cheaper nice cameras.
@coreyames8551
1 Spice up
Also, Connection does have vivotek in stock, but because of some weird agreement with vivotek, it always shows as out of stock. contact a sales person to get a quote (I can recommend one if you want)
1 Spice up
LOL! Agreed. Or, there is a gotcha involved. The Chinese government subsidizes the cameras so they are less expensive and are nice, but they come with backdoor software as the gotcha. When you install their Camera Station on the PC or the app on your phone they own you.
So, @brodyweber , how much am I looking for with a Vivotek 8MP camera? And how do you think they compare to a Geovision or Axis 8MP camera? Also, what Camera Station s/w do you use?
I just did another walkthrough on the auto center job I have to do. They gave me a budget of $4-5K and gave a second budget of $7-8K to give a second estimate if I could come up something better. The idea is for 11 8MP cameras and a Camera Station and room for more future cameras. Spitballing, without taxes or any profit, 11 cameras at $400 each and $600 for a Camera Center would work for just the hardware. Of course, I need to make a profit and to consider installation/configuration time.
@compgeek89 , if you prefer I ask these questions on another thread, let me know.
Their problem with spending a lot of money is that they have caught thefts on camera and handed the videos to the police, but the cops do nothing. Unless it involves bodily harm of some kind, they ignore it. So, the auto center sees no value in an expensive camera system. Once, I even pulled pictures of the thief who stole keys and took the cars. He wore shorts and had a distinct tattoo on his ankle. The auto shop suspected an employee who just quit, but the police ignored it completely. I handed it to them on a silver platter and nothing was done. That’s why I have a low budget.
1 Spice up
Emperor Crusher:
LOL! Agreed. Or, there is a gotcha involved. The Chinese government subsidizes the cameras so they are less expensive and are nice, but they come with backdoor software as the gotcha. When you install their Camera Station on the PC or the app on your phone they own you.
So, Bweber93, how much am I looking for with a Vivotek 8MP camera? And how do you think they compare to a Geovision or Axis 8MP camera? Also, what Camera Station s/w do you use?
I just did another walkthrough on the auto center job I have to do. They gave me a budget of $4-5K and gave a second budget of $7-8K to give a second estimate if I could come up something better. The idea is for 11 8MP cameras and a Camera Station and room for more future cameras. Spitballing, without taxes or any profit, 11 cameras at $400 each and $600 for a Camera Center would work for just the hardware. Of course, I need to make a profit and to consider installation/configuration time.
compgeek89, if you prefer I ask these questions on another thread, let me know.
Their problem with spending a lot of money is that they have caught thefts on camera and handed the videos to the police, but the cops do nothing. Unless it involves bodily harm of some kind, they ignore it. So, the auto center sees no value in an expensive camera system. Once, I even pulled pictures of the thief who stole keys and took the cars. He wore shorts and had a distinct tattoo on his ankle. The auto shop suspected an employee who just quit, but the police ignored it completely. I handed it to them on a silver platter and nothing was done. That’s why I have a low budget.
how high up are these cameras? unless they’re like 20 feet up or more, 8MP is OVERKILL. this is an image from a 2MP dome camera 20 feet up in our store. I don’t need to read barcodes from their products or anything, so 8MP is overkill.
I could see the argument for a 4MP, but bigger than that is just gonna fill your storage for no good reason.
I’d say between $200 and $450 per camera for a 2MP or 4MP camera. they’re ONVIF compliant, so should work with other NVS systems as well.
I use vivotek VAST2 for our NVS system, I run it on a windows VM and you get 32 vivotek camera licenses for free, no yearly maintenance or anything. we have around 70 cameras with 3 weeks of footage and it takes up roughly 30 TB of storage.
2 Spice ups
@coreyames8551 I am finding this dialog quite helpful, please continue here! Thanks for asking!
Bweber93:
how high up are these cameras? unless they’re like 20 feet up or more, 8MP is OVERKILL. this is an image from a 2MP dome camera 20 feet up in our store. I don’t need to read barcodes from their products or anything, so 8MP is overkill.
As a noob at video surveillance, I’m listening intently to your advice. The plan is to have 2 cameras on the front and 2 on the rear of the building with one on each side of the building. I would think 8MP will be needed for that outside view. The front is about 120’ wide. They want 2 cameras on the back also, since while they have been working on the building they’ve had graffiti sprayed on the rear twice already.
This is a front view: Google Maps
This is an overhead view: Google Maps
Inside is a different story. The right side has 4 bays and the garage doors you see will be replaced with glass doors so you can see in (and break in easier). There will be 2 cameras each covering 2 doors as in this shot. The camera is inside at about that 15’ high level and is about 20 feet from the door. I’m just putting arrows to kind of show what is going on with the view.
The other side of the front now has the front blown out and has large glass windows to show off cars in the lobby (and make it easier to break in). There are planned 2 cameras at 15’ high on opposite sides to catch anyone breaking in. In addition, on the right is the main shop desk and a camera placed at 8’ high aiming toward the customer area to cover the front on that side.
Here is an overhead view showing camera angles.
I’ve told them to have nice LED lights put all around the outside of the building. First, it should deter graffiti artists (unless they appreciate the help of the light to paint better) and thieves from breaking in. Second, it should allow me to get some great full color video footage.
I look forward to hearing your advice on the good, the bad and the ugly of what I’m planning. Thanks!
@brodyweber
Emperor Crusher:
Bweber93:
how high up are these cameras? unless they’re like 20 feet up or more, 8MP is OVERKILL. this is an image from a 2MP dome camera 20 feet up in our store. I don’t need to read barcodes from their products or anything, so 8MP is overkill.
As a noob at video surveillance, I’m listening intently to your advice. The plan is to have 2 cameras on the front and 2 on the rear of the building with one on each side of the building. I would think 8MP will be needed for that outside view. The front is about 120’ wide. They want 2 cameras on the back also, since while they have been working on the building they’ve had graffiti sprayed on the rear twice already.
This is a front view: Google Maps
This is an overhead view: Google Maps
Inside is a different story. The right side has 4 bays and the garage doors you see will be replaced with glass doors so you can see in (and break in easier). There will be 2 cameras each covering 2 doors as in this shot. The camera is inside at about that 15’ high level and is about 20 feet from the door. I’m just putting arrows to kind of show what is going on with the view.
The other side of the front now has the front blown out and has large glass windows to show off cars in the lobby (and make it easier to break in). There are planned 2 cameras at 15’ high on opposite sides to catch anyone breaking in. In addition, on the right is the main shop desk and a camera placed at 8’ high aiming toward the customer area to cover the front on that side.
Here is an overhead view showing camera angles.
I’ve told them to have nice LED lights put all around the outside of the building. First, it should deter graffiti artists (unless they appreciate the help of the light to paint better) and thieves from breaking in. Second, it should allow me to get some great full color video footage.
I look forward to hearing your advice on the good, the bad and the ugly of what I’m planning. Thanks!
you can reduce some camera needs by getting fisheye or 180 degree cameras to cover multiple angles at once. I never recommend PTZ cameras unless there’s someone onsite watching and controlling it, otherwise it’s never looking at the right place.
https://www.vivotek.com/FE9391-EV can be used at each corner to cover each side of the building, or for inside the indoor areas, you can turn each of these into 4 or 5 discrete views that look like a normal camera view
https://www.vivotek.com/MS9390-HV is a good option to cover 180 degrees of an area as well.
I’d say if you wanted to stay with domes inside than I’d stick with just 4MP max, otherwise you’re going to be paying too much for image quality you don’t need. your camera angles look fine otherwise, I would also recommend that you make sure whatever camera you get for outside/pointing at doors handles glare/light changes really well. My vivotek 2MP have WDR Pro which takes 5 images with different settings and then combines them into the best possible version, I have spotlights pointing almost directly at one camera and it doesn’t even bother it.
I called Vivotek sales, because I had a lot more questions after reading your last post. The sales rep was very helpful. I’m looking into those 180 degree panoramic cameras to put in the center of the coverage areas verses cameras on each side. I might be able to get rid of 4 cameras. The cost for those cameras is much higher, so that’s a consideration, but they do have the analytics license built into the cost. The rep also said I could sign up as a channel partner because I’m a reseller/installer instead of an end user. The benefits can add up for channel partners when working on a registered project. The minimum for a project is $5000, but you get extra discounts on cameras and additional 2 to 3 years on warranties. I’m sure there are other benefits I don’t know about yet.
I do have question on the cameras that @brodyweber might be able to answer. A colleague of mine was a channel partner and tried out Vivotek cameras about 4 years ago and he tried them outside a bar he was securing, but the night vision was terrible. He tried Axis and it was perfect, being able to identify the person. How are Vivotek’s cameras in no light situations these days? And if there are outdoor lights, from what you write it seems you think they are pretty good?
Emperor Crusher:
I called Vivotek sales, because I had a lot more questions after reading your last post. The sales rep was very helpful. I’m looking into those 180 degree panoramic cameras to put in the center of the coverage areas verses cameras on each side. I might be able to get rid of 4 cameras. The cost for those cameras is much higher, so that’s a consideration, but they do have the analytics license built into the cost. The rep also said I could sign up as a channel partner because I’m a reseller/installer instead of an end user. The benefits can add up for channel partners when working on a registered project. The minimum for a project is $5000, but you get extra discounts on cameras and additional 2 to 3 years on warranties. I’m sure there are other benefits I don’t know about yet.
I do have question on the cameras that Bweber93 might be able to answer. A colleague of mine was a channel partner and tried out Vivotek cameras about 4 years ago and he tried them outside a bar he was securing, but the night vision was terrible. He tried Axis and it was perfect, being able to identify the person. How are Vivotek’s cameras in no light situations these days? And if there are outdoor lights, from what you write it seems you think they are pretty good?
I only use indoor domes, so the night vision IR isn’t as strong, but here’s a picture of one of our cameras in the dark, again a 2MP unit. If it wasn’t aimed up so high at the ceiling the NV would probably be even better, but it’s good enough for our purposes.
