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I’ve been tasked to come up with a solution for physical access. I have a room with a standard door which itself is behind a sliding barn style door. I’d like a pass key type solution that is centrally managed. One that I’ve found is Ubiquiti and would mostly suit the bill. However, a concern is with lights out operation. They want an old fashioned key to override the locks in all manners of failure.

I’ve found I can secure the barn door with a mag lock, but this style lock fails secure and won’t operate at all without some form of power.–EDIT-- This isn’t correct it’s actually the opposite issue.-- Compared to the standard door strikeplate which can be overridden by unlocking the standard lockset left on the door.

The odds are low that a situation will occur where I’ve lost UPS power and I’d have to resort to a fireman’s axe to get in the room. But, they are leery of me buying a solution that doesn’t have a zero power override option. --EDIT-- The failure being that the other room remains unsecure during an outage.–

Suggestions?

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I’ve found I can secure the barn door with a mag lock, but this style lock fails secure and won’t operate at all without some form of power. …

Are you sure you stated this correctly? Mag locks only hold together when powered. The power creates the magnetic field to make the plates stick. When power is cut, magnetic hold is lost.

And to be clear, it’s the barn door you are looking to secure?

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That’s not my understanding of the term “fail secure.” Meaning if something fails, or the wires cut, the lock will remain secure and perform its intended function. If power were to fail, yes I’d expect that the magnet would continue to hold. Are you certain these are electromagnets and not just generic magnets treated to a field or forced away with a servo when unlocked? If so that would be concerning as well. We’d certainly want the lock to continue to provide security. We’re just after a power out means to override it.

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Indeed you’re right…

I took another read of the specs and its fail safe, not fail secure.

It would seem a moot point with overriding the lock, but it then presents the opposite issue which is still technically a problem. We’d then have an unsecured room during such failure.

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That’s what a battery backup would be for, to keep the magnetic field active during a power outage.

Depending on local and state safety ordinances, you might be required provide a request to exit (REX) inside the room that cuts the power to the mags so that no one is trapped inside. Electronic access control (EAC) is a different animal than CCTV. You might want to consult with a licensed security installer as EAC can carry high liability.

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So why not mag lock the barn door itself with a fail safe configuration. And leave the secondary door as a manual operation. If you’re not operating an internal power source for your mag lock this is the safest approach.

In this configuration:
Standard day to day operations - you have Double layers.

Lights out - you fall to single security for 5 minutes or for the lifetime of the outage.

It’s the same as any n+1 redundancy scenario - when your normal operation fails your redundancy is still in place (manual lock on second door) but considered at risk at that point until normal operations are restored

(The bigger problem would be if you didn’t have that second internal door.)

Fail safe is typically when you want to ensure access in the event of an emergency
This is for fire routes or component critical access.

Fail secure means you want to lock down the environment - usually you can override from the inside but this wouldn’t work for you if my understanding of your scenario is correct as it’s an unoccupied room.

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Two different levels of security. There are fewer staff who will access the interior room. Exterior room will have a much broader level of access.

Right now the room is secured using a pad lock. The very definition of “fail secure.” It has no emergency egress which we will likely need to address.

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Batteries can fail. Hence management’s request to try for a solution that has a hardware override like a key. They don’t want to risk a situation where we’re taking a fireman’s axe to the outer door in such an event. But, ideally we don’t want to risk an unsecured room either.

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Use the type of lock that replaces the keep/strike plate with one electronically actuated - of type FAIL SECURE. These allow a normal standard latch to be used in the door.
You then have a manual key override option on the door for entry, and for manual exit the latch can have just a handle on the inside.
This meets safety requirements as it is manually operated when power is lost - but does not fail open.

These are standard spec devices (about 20GBP so less than $20) typically 12v and basically any door entry system can activate them. Or I’m finding complete systems for approx $150.

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That’s a good suggestion, but if I understand correctly, his problem is this is a barn door style door where strikes are not easy to put on or won’t work. The OP can confirm or clarify.

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Won’t work on a sliding barn door. Hence the idea with a mag lock. Since starting this there have been devices that I’ve found that use pins from above and below, or a gate lock. None of those solutions address the safety egress issue. That’s where I’ve have to get creative. I’ve suggested re-framing the outer entry to a wide swing door which I could put a standard lock set on and use the strike plate approach. That solves it, but you give up width of the opening which may be useful for the maintenance department which uses the outer room.

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In the meantime of starting this they’ve come to me and lessened the requirement in the interest of time. Primary interest being securing the inner door.

So it would appear I can leave off the barn door in the solution entirely and proceed with the strike plate idea on the other door.

If anyone does come up with something crafty for a barn door let me know, otherwise I’ll carry on as is.

Thanks!

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Hope you don’t mind me circling around to this again, though I admit I still may be missing something. If the pins locking the door above and below are electronically controlled, as long as they fail safe, meaning they unlock during a power outage, that should not be a problem, should it? Having a request to exit button (REX) on the inside that cuts power to the pins (and the same thing applies to mag locks) would permit free egress during normal business operation. For outside access, you’d use a prox credential.

You would have a battery backup on the system so that everything stays locked like it’s supposed too during power outages during business hours.

Off business hours, you’d secure the door with something like a padlock, because you would not want the door becoming unlocked during an extended power outage where the battery backup runs out and the pins (or mag locks) open in fail safe.

So off hours, padlocked the old fashioned way. During business, the access control system secures the door, provided you implemented the necessary exit overrides according to life safety codes. This is how 99.9% of installations go when using maglocks (or gate pins) on doors.

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Again, if we’re talking about the outer barn door, then yes, batteries can fail, but that is why you perform regular checks and maintenance on them and it’s a lot less likely to happen. If it does fail, as long as the locks fail safe (open), no one needs to tax a fireman axe to the door. I would hope if the facility has a power outage during normal business hours, someone would notice and fix the problem and monitor the door if the battery gives out. After all, if the power is out in the facility, there aren’t as many people able to do their regular jobs, so someone can be spared to monitor the door.

If there is a proximity reader on the outside, and as long as the UPS is keeping the system powered, someone can use a credential to open the locks, so no one is taking an axe to the door.

If there is a properly installed REX switch inside (safety requirements), then someone from the inside can hit that and open the door. So again, no one needs to take an axe to the door.

A padlock on the door during off hours secures it for when nobody is there. So someone with a key and the right prox credential can open the door. No axe.

Only real problem you might run into is if everyone leaves for lunch and they accidently lock themselves outside. But that can happen to any office with access control or not. If you have a network connected access control system, someone can probably remote in and manually unlock any access controlled door.

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I know this thread is getting a bit old, but I wanted to add a note

Sliding barn doors do NOT meet emergency egress requirements regardless of locking,

because you can not ‘panic’ out of the door by pushing on it, even when it is unlocked, that is why you rarely see them any more…

Presumably you have other exits that push outwards with panic hardware…

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Depending on where you are located, code and life-safety may require that the lock fails-open. This is because if a person is in the room and the power goes out, there is the possibility of becoming entrapped.

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Do you have to mag-lock the barn door, or lock it at all? I feel this is the cause of most of the issues.

Putting a mag-strike on the standard door can fail-secure (since they’re usually operated by a solenoid). The lockset handle can always be operated from the inside, allowing egress under all conditions, and the lockset cylinder can provide entry while power to the mag-strike is down.

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Depends. If it is a loading dock door, it may not be under that requirement, especially if there is a regular door nearby. It depends on what the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) says. Finding out who the local AHJ is and asking for their opinion, and probably a complimentary site visit, might be a good idea. But that’s also why this should be left to a licensed and certified professional who is supposed to know the local ordinances and can guide the customer on the best solution. It would then also fall on their liability insurance in case there is a lawsuit. You can always ask a contractor for a copy of their COI (Certificate of Insurance) to 1) verify they are currently insured and 2) have something to go against in case there is a lawsuit.

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Just wanted to followup to see if you eventually did get something implemented and how it is working out for you.

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I only just saw this discussion.
Go with a professional, I read this & am also concerned about your local requirements. A pro will know what is required legally & physically.
We’re talking about batteries here, as well as fail-safe/fail-secures, yet nobody has even started discussing Normal Open/Normal Closed circuits…
This is what you pay a professional to know. I can wire door circuits in my office & program swipes etc. But I do not know the fire legislation in each state (for instance).