Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive355
Cortador
[edit]| Content dispute. Please use dispute resolution --Guerillero Parlez Moi 13:14, 30 May 2025 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Cortador[edit]
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I believe that the evidence here, and past discussions with others on his talk page, demonstrates violations of most if not all of Wikipedia:Contentious topics#Editing a contentious topic Re Black Kite's comment [1]: I agree. Refactored.[2] I shouldn't have mentioned the tag at that point. --Hipal (talk) 22:58, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Cortador[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Cortador[edit]This issue started because Hipal kept adding whole-article tags to Hasan Piker, when this discussion 1 had made it clear that Hipal was the only editor supporting the tags, whereas at least six other editors (LittleJerry, Bluethricecreamman, jonas, CeltBrowne, Alenoach, and myself) disagreed with the addition. The talk page consensus was clear, so I removed the tags. Hipal also made other edits against talk page consensus, as per this discussion. 2. Following that, Hipal started this discussion 3 where they made it clear that their intend was not assess issues with the article and then add appropriate tags, but instead add tags and then look for a justification afterwards. Evidence for this is is that when Hipal stated that they planned to add the tag again, they only had found one issue with one source, which was missing an author, but speculated that there had to be nine other sources with issues ("That's one in ten, so I'm extrapolating that there are some nine more."). Hipal also falsely claimed that nobody was objecting to this when Ratgomery and myself did, both on the talk page ("As there are no objections based upon the state of the article, the tag should be restored.") and in a diff description 4 ("no dispute over content problems identified"). Lastly, Hipal admitted to this in their statement here, where they stated that "only the first ten sources had been reviewed at this point". It is not appropriate to demand the addition of whole-article tags after only having reviewed ten sources out of (as of the making of this statement) 104 sources. This, in my opinion, further demonstrates that it was Hipal's intend to just have the tag there instead of providing evidence that it is needed. They also attempted to revert the burden of proof, stating on the talk page that "No one has indicated that no further problems remain to be found". Demanding that whole-article tags be added until proven that they aren't needed is an abuse of tags. I'm willing to assume good faith with other editors. However, this does has limits, and those include editing against clear talk page consensus as well as openly stating that it is one's intend to simply have tags on the article and search for a reason after adding them, which is disruptive behaviour. Cortador (talk) 19:47, 22 May 2025 (UTC) Statement by MilesVorkosigan[edit]This issue was just discussed at ANI a few days ago. Hipal was asked to drop the stick and communicate the specifics of their issue with the article using specific examples, not generalities or guesses. The filing of this request for enforcement suggests that this advice was not taken. I believe that the request is a waste of administrator's time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MilesVorkosigan (talk • contribs) 11:36 May 22 2025 (UTC) Hipal stated on my talk page that they had made (at least) two specific comments about the article and what was needed for it, one was on May 15 and it was addressed. The other diff goes to May 3 and as far as I can tell is Hipal saying that editors who wanted to remove the tag were not displaying competence. I don't see how that is helpful for their position, but there it is. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:52, 23 May 2025 (UTC) Statement by (Ratgomery)[edit]Commenting because Hipal has also left me an edit warring notice over a revert regarding these tags, and because I was named in the discussion. Incase it's been overlooked, let me point out there are 3 talk page discussions regarding this exact issue in total, as I believe only one of these discussions has been referenced so far. [| POV_and_BLP_sources_tags] , [| Disruptive_Editing_and_Removals] as well as [| Complete_citations_needed] which has already been linked. Hipal has engaged with a large number of editors over these tags. Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Cortador[edit]
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The Final Bringer of Truth
[edit]| Indeffed as a non-AE action. I would recommend a TBAN as a condition of any unblock. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 13:49, 31 May 2025 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning The Final Bringer of Truth[edit]
None.
This is clearly an editor that does not intend to contribute constructively in this topic area. The diffs above show tendentious editing and personal attacks against other users (including calling them vandals). I've collected the most recent diffs, some of which happened after I gave them a clear warning that they needed to stop. They haven't stopped, and they've actually kept going. It's clear this editor is not here to constructively contribute to the AP2 topic area. If they are here to contribute constructively they should be required to display such by editing in other areas constructively first. There are many more diffs - basically all of their edits either have an edit summary they're attacking others, or they are attacking others on the talk page with the edit. It's clear this user is here to right great wrongs and not to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. I apologize for not going even further back in their edits to get more of them, but virtually their entire edit history is clearly battleground in this topic area. I'm not advocating for a full wiki block at this point, but a topic ban from AP2 would be beneficial until they learn how to contribute constructively. Regards, -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:33, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning The Final Bringer of Truth[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by The Final Bringer of Truth[edit]I’ve never interacted with this individual in my life. I see nothing here but tone policing. Not once is article content mentioned. Does such a weak case even deserve an answer? And my god, this is an encyclopedia, learn some Shakespeare Also, the individual who I “accused” of off wiki coordination had themselves stated they were coordinating off wiki and cited an off wiki discussion as the reason for “boldly deleting an article.” This is very dishonest stuff. Be sure you understand a situation before opining. The editor cited an off wiki discussion as reason for “boldly removing” an article. I correctly advised that this is off wiki coordination and is unacceptable. As for the accusation of vandalism, you be the judge of whether the following constitutes vandalism. An editor removed 3 reliable sources. After removing the sources, they then tagged the underlying sentence as needing citation. Then they deleted the sentence for needing a citation based on the tag, which they had deleted the citations. If this kind of behavior, like any vandalism, is allowed to stand, you cannot have an encyclopedia. This matter was discussed on multiple talk pages. The author of the enforcement request has had no involvement with the relevant pages and does not appear to have any understanding of the talk page discussions they are mentioning. They hope you will just take their word for what they say instead of actually reading them. Zero of the diffs cited by OP actually say what OP has falsely claimed they say. Again, this arb request has been made dishonestly and in bad faith and WP: Boomerang surely applies here. You haven’t shown one poorly sourced or false or misleading edit I made to any article. Even someone seething with anger at me is unable to show a single bad edit I made. (Indeed, I always come armed to the teeth with sources and hew scrupulously to their content. I counsel OP to try doing the same.) All you’ve said is “I don’t like this guy’s tone!” That’s tone policing, is carried out in bad faith, and is a waste of time for all involved. Cheers friends
Rebuttal All you have to do is learn the content of WP: Synth, Toffenham. What do you mean “let’s assume it was speculation”? I showed you why it is speculation. The articles you cited don’t make the claim you cite them to claim. Hence your addition of that claim is your personal speculation. It isn’t in the sources. In an encyclopedia, we rely on sources and what they say, not the personal theories of editors on what a source might imply. You can’t add in your personal inferences or speculations about the outcomes of hypotheticals. Any editor would tell you can’t do that. Please read the many patient explanations I gave you. The articles you cited don’t mention democrat deaths and hence can’t be used to make your synthetic claim that the democrat deaths did not affect the outcome! That’s your personal speculation! Please Read Synth already! At no point have I have been “radio silent” you are willfully lying to the Arb board there. Your sources do not claim what you say. Notice also you claim you were suggesting article changes without having read the sources cited. The sources you cited do not mention democrat deaths. Hence you cannot rely on them to make an inference that republicans would have not abstained if Connolly et al hadn’t died. There is no source that says that. That is purely your speculation and has no business in an encyclopedia, and you’ve been wasting everyone’s time because you don’t understand what Synth is. Show me even one article with a direct quote that supports your position. The Final Bringer of Truth (talk) 04:34, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Tofflenheim[edit]I started an innocuous discussion [[3]] on an (admittedly politics related) talk page stating that I believed a section in the article was misleading. I was not trying to delete, remove, or censor, but call to add context. There are a few proper responses to this, for example 1/ "do you have a source for this claim, or a reason to believe that the current wording is NPOV" or 2/ "I don't agree with the way you've characterized this, for XYZ reason". Instead, The Final Bringer of Truth comments:
OK. Let's assume I was speculating. This is a really aggressive approach. I'm trying to be civil so I'm replying, giving links and quotes from articles. But no matter what I do, he keeps escalating:
30 minutes later, before I even get the chance to read his reply:
I finally take some time to review all the sources because I realize at this point, this guy is not trying to have a discussion, he is trying to belittle and attack everyone around him. I go to the article, find the passage that in question, and click the first source and find the following: diff1, diff2 So in his personal own source, there are claims that directly support the point I was trying to make. Since then, he's gone completely radio silent on the topic, avoiding admitting that he was wrong and that he needlessly escalated. I should have brought these up at the start, I admit that. but this guys behavior made it impossible to have a good faith discussion with his battleground mentality. Patterns of behavior:
this is his pattern of behavior with everyone, not just me. he's literally still doing it, below, in his so called "rebuttal" (note he does not actually address the content of anything I've shared, he just hand waves it all as irrelevant and goes straight to insults. The general thesis is that I came to the talk page to talk, and instead of fostering a discussion that would have quickly led to the first couple of sources that agree with a claim I was making, this user got into an battleground mindset, aggroed on everyone, and then when others take the high ground and provide data and sources he doubles down and calls everything they're saying wrong.
Result concerning The Final Bringer of Truth[edit]
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