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Hi All

I’m about to have a little rant. Please don’t take this the wrong way, I think the Spiceworks community is a great resource and there are a lot of awesome people here so consider this as constructive criticism.

[rant] I don’t know about others but it find it very frustrating when I ask for help or advice with an unusual/unsupported/old configuration and the only answers I get are “Buy this”,“Upgrade that”, “Do it this completely different way”.

I get that most of the time there are better and easier ways to do things and that upgrading old tech can save a lot of headaches. But don’t leave it at that. Odds are the person asking is not a complete idiot and there is a good reason they haven’t considered this already, whether it be budget or just something they’re more familiar with.

For example, say I was having a problem with an XP machine. This problem has existed for years, is clearly documented but is being difficult to fix in this case. Responses like:

  • "XXXX should fix it, but you should think about upgrading to Windows 7/8. It will help prevent this in future"
  • “Might be a compatibility issue with Server 2012 but try XXX”

Are fine. Responses like “XP is not longer supported, you should have upgraded” are plain unhelpful. Anyone who pays attention to this forum is well aware that XP is now unsupported but maybe, just maybe there is a good reason they’re stuck with it and need to make it work as best they can.

I’ve had answers like this for questions involving products which ARE still supported because the greater part of the community doesn’t like them. I’m certainly not saying they don’t deserve it (I’m looking at you SBS), but quite often we just have to make the best of a bad situation.

So before you post, put yourself in the other persons shoes. Their network is down, the boss is ready to fire someone and their best hope is a pearl of wisdom from the friendly Spiceheads… “Why are you re-installing Server 08? Upgrade to 2012 already!” Gee, thanks [/rant]

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In your scenario there is a good reason that people are recommending moving away from XP. It is a non-supported OS. If it is connected to the Internet this is really bad practice.

I don’t see these as unhelpful. I see budget restraints as unhelpful. There is no cost-benefit being performed in any way. Even a quick discussion on the time spent to resolve plus the negatives of using an old system versus the cost to upgrade would suffice.

I do agree that too often people are recommending upgrade when someone is using a supported OS. However; it’s crazy how often someone is having trouble with an upgrade and they are upgrading to Windows 2008. That’s crazy. 2008 was 6 years ago! Come on people.

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I can understand your total frustration. It’s like having your hand slapped after reaching out for help. You would like someone to take your hand as a gesture of help, not slap it.

Though I do agree with Simon when he said, “. . .there is a good reason that people are recommending moving away from XP. It is a non-supported OS. If it is connected to the Internet this is really bad practice.”, but I too agree with you and I understand your frustrations. I too have been in situations where I have to ‘patch-n-fix’ instead of upgrade and there was nothing I can do about it.

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I don’t disagree on any particular point, but what are we really saying here? That if you’re running an old OS or old hardware we’re not prepared to help? Go back to your bosses and make a better argument for budget $$? Do we need to put a “Supported Operating Systems” list on the community home page?

I don’t know about you but to me that violates the spirit and purpose of this place.

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How does recommending the best possible solution violate the spirit and purpose of this place? This is a community for IT Pros. Of course they are going to recommend best practice and be against supporting bad practices.

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At my previous jobs, I was working for an SMB. IT budgets were really low and we often had to build servers out of retired workstations, with OSes that would still work on those old machines. We also had a bunch of old applications that were used internally only, applications that would not work on newer OSes.

Another example, we had to deploy a Windows 2008 server (not R2, plain 2008) to be able to run a software provided by a big outsourcing payroll company (if I am not mistaken, the largest in Canada). That software, at its current release, won’t install or run on anything 64 bits.

I agree with Benjamin on the fact that sometimes, there are “good” reasons not to upgrade, been there, done that. I do however try to push for newer versions of software/hardware when possible, and when reasonable. I would probably recommend upgrading older unsupported systems (if possible), but will also try to help as much as I can to fix the issue. For me, every question is legitimate. I don’t like to be turned back because of management decisions (on which I have no impact), so I won’t do it.

To be honest, however, I didn’t have that feeling many times on this community. It happened a few times, from a few individuals, but I always managed to get around that and most of the time, find solutions to my problems.

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I’m certainly not saying you can’t recommend the best solution, but don’t make it the only option unless it really is.

As you said we’re all IT Pros and we all have the same constraints: budget, time and upper management. The extent of these constraints varies dramatically between companies/businesses, while replacing 5 towers running XP might be a no-brainer for larger or more receptive companies, here I got a flat no from management and that’s the end of it. I have no budget, everything is approved directly by my boss. I’m not ignorant of the serious security risk these machines presents, I simply have no other choice but I still need to keep them running as well and securely as I can.

I’m just saying we should keep situations like this in mind and give our fellow Pros the benefit of the doubt when they ask for help with a less-than-best practice.

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It’s not that the community is not prepared to help. It’s that in many cases, upgrading obsolete technology is, in fact, the very best possible long-term solution.

In nearly every sector outside of manufacturing, ongoing compatibility issues with Windows XP are absolutely caused by someone in a leadership position kicking a can down the road in the name of “budget restrictions” while having no proper understanding of “cost now vs larger cost later”. Manufacturing gets a small pass only because the can-kicking is happening at the equipment level, with brand new $500,000 lasers not having proper compatibility with anything other than Windows XP or running on 10-year-old XP Embedded controller software. (Yes, that was a real-world example from 2014.)

Does it help now? No, probably not. But when you take a proper look at many such situations, scraping together a fix with digital duct tape and electron bubble gum doesn’t actually help, either. It simply kicks the can farther down the road and makes a proper fix nearly impossible at anything approaching cost-effective.

Also, let’s not forget that many of the folks here are relatively green (and I’m not talking about just their Pepper Points). It’s VERY common for folks new to IT to lack the exposure to the kind of limitations that many of us have dealt with on a daily basis for years (or decades).

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I hear you Seydon, as a whole I think this community is a fantastic resource with lots of helpful people. I’ve probably seen it more than most because I routinely deal with businesses running SBS servers. Personally I don’t have a problem with SBS but I do understand why they get such a bad rap and I’ve seen firsthand how they can go horribly wrong.

Recently though with the XP EOL I’ve been noticing it more prevalently and I think by now we’re all well aware that it needs to go from our networks ASAP. But those of us stuck with it, in the process of retiring it or still explaining to the customer what an OS is (lol), we still need to keep these machines running in the meantime.

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I agree 100% with Benjamin regarding what I will call the “default response”.
Are we to preface each question with: “I know that XP has reached EOL; or I know that 10/100 switches are not industry best practices; I know I shouldn’t use mapped drives; I know that RAID5 should not be used; I know my boss is wrong …”

Industry best practices are not necessarily the best practices for every company represented here. Period.

Instead of recommending Windows 7 or 8, why not Linux? It’s safer than MS WinX.
I know, I know … that’s what you use (MS products).

Let’s work with what we’ve been handed; or rather what the OP has to work with.
Sure ask for clarification, or more information, if needed.

If you read a rant in my comment … then re-read, please … this is not a rant, but rather my view.

@bc-w

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I see your point. If it can be fixed, management views that as “Action not required” whereas if its a flat out “No, we need X or that’s it” they’re forced to look at smarter long term options. Really though, that’s not our choice to make, that decision rests with Spicehead asking the question. We don’t know the internal situation, they may already have tried to follow best practice and been denied or their job might be on the line and they need to get this system running again.

I greatly value the feedback I receive from other Spiceheads and try to follow it in future (goodbye SBS, hello Office 365) but at 1am with a dead SBS VM and people expecting to work tomorrow, I just need it fixed. We can discuss best practice once I’ve slept!

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Simon, please re-read Benjamin’s opening scenario and comments. I believe you misunderstood what he meant.

The “best possible solution” may be an IBM iSeries Power 720 instead of 2008R2 SQL.
Rip out the Microsoft network in order to obtain the “best possible solution” (IBM midrange server)? No.
Rip out CAT5e and replace with CAT6e? No.
Switch to 100% fiber? No.
Encrypt all server and workstation data? No.

But these are Industry Best Practices, are they not?
“Best Practices” also includes “forward-looking solutions” … the future, not simply today or next week.
So Windows 7 is out of the question. Let’s wait for Windows 10…?
Thanks.

@simonmatthews @bc-w

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No, I understood perfectly well. I see this as an argument of technology vs management. You come across these constantly. Someone wants an issue resolved and they expect it to be resolved with technology. This issue probably can be resolved with technology but not with what you have. It then becomes a management issue because you need to organise a proper solution. If someone wants to avoid spending then you avoid fixing it and make people work around the issue or similar.

Once management realise people are wasting a heap of time because they didn’t want to spend a bit of money to resolve the issue, they will hopefully change their mind.

This idea of “We don’t have money to spend on this business critical infrastructure.” is infuriating. What do you always hear from staff when the Internet, or an important server, is down? “I always forget how much I rely on technology.”

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I agree wholeheartedly with Benjamin.

As mentioned, there are still software and hardware companies selling “solutions” that only run on old OSs. Some of us have to work with the hands we are dealt. I am still affiliated with companies that use CNC and computer controller equipment that run on Windows 98. The upgrade path is to replace the entire unit at $150K+. When your budget is zero, no matter how many time you multiply it, it will never reach that figure.

SO, we upgrade the equipment we CAN upgrade, patch and MacGyver the stuff we can’t replace, and keep muddling along.

RobT.

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In these cases the old computers aren’t usually connected to the Internet though, so the deprecated OS isn’t a concern.

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If I can add my two cents here:
In most posts described by the OP the problem is the those posts are often lacking in information.

E.g:

“I have XP SP3 and I am getting this error, how can i resolve it?”

It is hardly ever mentioned that:
“We are a CNC manufacturing plant, our software only works on XP SP3, I am getting this error, how can I resolve it?”

Yeah that said, great topic OP.

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I can understand people wanting to suggest that the latest and greatest should be moved, particularly if they have upgraded and found benefit from doing so, but as has been said, there are many reasons some installations are not able to upgrade early.

Also, is it best practice to do a rushed, off the cuff, server upgrade because you are having a problem with a supported OS that is not quite the latest version (e.g. Server 2008 R2)?

I always thought that server upgrades should be properly planned and managed with a fall back plan, planned downtime proper backups etc.

If some one is having trouble getting a 2008R2 server back on line, telling them they should be running 2012 and that switching to this will solve the problem is not exactly helpful as attempting an upgrade at that point is just about the last resort.

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I pretty much completely agree with OP. Lots of time you get no response to your question other than “Try this product.” with no additional details about why I should try that product. “XP EOL upgrade because it’s a security risk” with no additional details or information or alternatives is not helpful because 99% of the time the asking party already knows that and is in a situation where upgrading is not an option.

Simon has some opinions on this matter but unfortunately, I’m not quite sure where he’s coming from. He recognizes that we/endusers sometimes take for granted how much we rely on technology in life yet is somehow arguing that these short “Upgrade from XP, XP isn’t supported so that’s bad.” answers are okay. He recognizes that sometimes an IT person’s hands are tied by management who wont give them the budget to make upgrades that are necessary, he recognizes that sometimes those IT people with their hands tied need help working around the fact that they can’t upgrade or implement other solutions, but has yet to state/admit that giving the answer suggesting best practice is a horrible answer especially if the OP has already said something like “I know it’s XP EOL but I have these things to work with to solve this problem management won’t budge, what can I do?”

I have seen others suggest that some Original Posters don’t give enough information. But sometimes they do and sometimes they still get those tired and unnecessary answers. And if someone didn’t give enough information, it might be considered condescending to simply suggest upgrading XP to a newer OS. Sometimes it would be a little nicer and a little more helpful to ask for some more specifics or suggest what kind of details would be helpful in solving the issue.

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True - but budget restraints still exist, are likely set by persons over which IT has little influence, and can’t be ignored simply because they are “unhelpful”.

Given enough time and money, anything is possible. However, in the real world that most of us occupy, we have to deal with more mundane limits.

I believe the OP has a valid rant - It’s one thing to pose the “money is no object” solution. It’s quite another to say, “here’s a solution, but product ‘X’ solves the problem for good.”

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Often it’s not even the OP’s decision … which is exactly the problem I’m describing.

I get that there are often limitations - I truly do. In fact, I’m in the process of helping a local CNC business recover from the death of the XP box that ran one of their CNC machines. It’s ugly. Thing is? When I had my hands on that same PC three years ago, I told the owners they needed to start making the budget arrangements to replace the machine. They ignored this recommendation - for whatever reason - and now they’re in a major bind. Hurry/scurry to get a replacement computer, paying me extra for the rush config, production delays for their clients due to loss of one of their CNC machines … all of which could have (and should have!) been avoided had they paid attention to what I told them.

Thing is? It’s also partially my fault. A lot of IT in general (and SMB in particular) is translating what technical recommendations mean in other terms. I will readily admit that in this case, I didn’t do a good job three years ago explaining the costs and pain points associated with this sort of system failure. (Largely because such things take time, and they weren’t paying me for that analysis.) I can’t guarantee that they’d have listened even if I had provided them with a “cost now vs more cost later” comparison. For those of us not engaging on a consultant basis it’s critically important that we become familiar enough with our employer’s business to be able to make those comparisons and projections.

In fact, this concept is so important that the good folks here at Spiceworks created a webinar titled How to Speak Boss . Watch it. It’s really, really important stuff.

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